Track 3

M: I thought I was at the end of the serious questions about your work. I have some other questions that are just general. They don’t have to be long answers, but… Or would you like to continue talking about the film – because I have other questions about the film?

K: Shoot away.

M: Casey said to keep it a half an hour. I don’t have many more questions, but… Should we go to a different topic? Or do you want to stay on the film and broach a different topic later?

K: Doesn’t matter. Your call.

M: I think we talked a lot about the film. It’s difficult to describe what it is. I’m sure it’s difficult to understand what it is. But I wanted to ask you, do you think there is a place for artists that are interested in the unexplainable, but honestly spiritual realm? Do you think there is a place for those types of artists in the art-world today?

K: Well, that’s a tough question.

M: I’m trying to figure it out for myself. So I’m using this opportunity to ask you.

K: I think we both are trying to figure that out. I guess what I can say is that I hope there is.

M: Me too.

K: But I also, maybe because I’ve been seeking it out, but I have noticed a slight shift toward these concerns lately, or maybe a return to these concerns. I don’t know if that has to do with the turning over of the economy and a desire for more primal material... But I have had a hint that it might be possible for artists to operate in this field. The other way I would answer that is that I am interested in promoting spirituality and mysticism as topics of concern, not just for the sake of my work, but for the sake of the subject itself.

M: Totally. Let me find this question because I worked on how I phrased it. Where the fuck is the question? Whatever I can’t find it. I think I crossed it out. I can’t find it on my list, but for you, how do you, in your fantasy world, how do you see the art-world functioning? (Perfect that these trucks are going by at this moment in the tape) But in an ideal world, how does the art-world function? I’m sure Casey won’t put this into the interview.

K: I hope not, because I don’t know how to answer that question.

M: I really worded it really good. We can skip it if you don’t like it, it’s fine. I just thought it was interesting because I think about it all the time. Like how should it function and… You don’t have to answer that question. I know it’s a difficult question – but I thought it would be good to ask a difficult questions.

K: I think about that as well. I’ve had feelings that you could re-engineer the system as a set of values, beliefs, or rituals rather than things. If there was some way to subtract the actual stuff out of the equation, and replace it with bigger issues, I think it would be quite beneficial. How that happens, and how art then functions as monetary support for creativity – I don’t know. It sounds lofty to say, but I do fantasize that there is some better to way to engage in and with art.

M: Well, my frustration is just that of course people benefit from selling objects and doing things and having exhibitions, but its like when I was reading Joseph Campbell and thinking about the role of the artist in society, I was like, man, this isn’t even our world. This has nothing to do with you and me and you know the people we went to school with – people are trying to make a living, or they are just trying to get to the studio to do their thing. I’m trying to say that in your fantasy world, you know what I mean, in your most insane fantasy, how does it work? For me in my fantasy world it’s… I agree with you. I wouldn’t use the world values – it’s definitely not about the plastic, but it’s about the immaterial. A little immaterial would be great for the NY art-world.

K: For people in general.

M: Exactly. For people in general. I know you and I aren’t out at parties trying to spread our gospel. But I feel like that would be our gospel. We’re about the immaterial even if you’re making videos, and I’m trying to do whatever I do. But it’s not about check me out, I’m on coke.

K: No it’s, check me out I’m drinking ayahuasca.

M: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I mean it’s cliché, and I’m sure there’s no great word for it, for New Age, but I feel like art really missed the boat. I guess culture in general missed the boat. People could be interested in the immaterial, unexplainable, indescribable, and the un-everything. And maybe it would be different.

K: That’s a zinger.

M: It’s our collective interest.

K: For me, even just pushing a little bit outside of what is the normal routine in the studio by getting involved in narrative film, is an attempt to move outside of the expected art behavior. But also, maybe I’m trying to see if there is another, better arena for these ideas than the art one.

M: Totally. We’re going over a half an hour – but I think it’s good for you and me anyway. You have a little bit of time to get to your book club anyway. (laugh). I was curious, I know you’ve been doing a little bit of music recently. I was curious if for you there was a difference between you making a track, making an object, or making a film?

K: Well, the thing is, the audio work that I have done recently is part of the video. So the videos acts as an…